Prostate Cancer Support Group

I am writing here both to clarify my thoughts and to encourage discussion about the experiences others have had concerning their reactions to having been diagnosed with prostate (or any other) cancer. Briefly, I am a 58 yr old otherwise perfectly healthy guy - a physician and someone who has always held conventional, strong ideas about spirituality and the value of religious conviction. My diagnosis of prostate cancer has forced me to examine this "religious" conviction in a very critical, analytical way. I have come to the conclusion that - if indeed God permits suffering to occur without availing the sufferer of healing and/ or the possibility for spiritual growth, THEN, that god is NOT the god I wish to know, That god is a grotesque monster, not a comforting "parent". The very notion that there may be a god who allows/permits - some would say is directly reponsible for suffering, - that is a sickening concept, It is more likely that this god does not exist. As an extension of that idea, it may be said that there is NO "god".

The inexcusable examples of god's failing to alleviate suffering, are the WWII Holoaust, the anguished suffering of an infant and the anguish of a parent whose child has died.

All I can add, is that for me, this so called "god" has been remarkable for his/her ineffective response to prayer, tears and begging. I am more and more convinced that for me, God is DEAD!!! ....your "mileage' may vary and I would appreciate hearing how your experience may have differed. Thank you!

I think we have to be careful not to ignite a pointless war of theologies, Schpier. That said, I certainly understand how something like this could make you question your beliefs. A cancer diagnosis knocks the wind out of you and those who love you. For me, an agnostic, the existential effect was not so major. It did, however, remind me that life is short and I had better take some time to enjoy it before it's too late. I would say that in this respect, my quality of life improved. I don't know that this outweighs all the crappiness of having gone through PC and surgery, but it did change my thinking on many levels.

I tend more toward either agnosticism or deism than to the image of a 6-foot, 200-lb white male God with a flowing beard. The deistic view, as I understand it, holds God as the creator, or master architect, who created the universe but left it free to evolve as it would. That is a significant step away from the personal sort of God who cares about the life of every sparrow. My training, like yours, is in medicine, not theology, so I can't really discuss the topic in depth.

I'm 72. My oncologist told me at the start of this journey 2.5 years ago that his best guess about my life expectancy was about 7 years. I've passed the psalmist's three score years and ten, so I figure any further survival is gravy.

I think it's very reasonable to discuss how prostate cancer effects you spiritually. Schpier, the question you pose is an ancient one that has caused many people to turn away from God. The question is, how can a loving all power full permit, pain, suffering, illness injury disease and tragedy, and still be considered an all powerful loving God.

Rabbi Kushner who wrote the book "When bad things happen to Good People" After his son died from progeria, He came to the conclusion God is good, but not powerful enough to stop suffering and evil. In other words he changed what the Torah teaches about God, an he invented a different God of his own making in order to preserve his relationship with God.

C.S. Lewis a very famous Christian writer went so far as calling God a "Cosmic Sadist" in his book "A Grief Observed" after his wife Joy died of cancer. However he was able to find his way back to faith. Suffering, evil and tragedy are difficult for anyone to face no matter how strong your faith.

I lost my faith in a different illness, far worse than my experience with prostate cancer. However, like C.S. Lewis I found my way back, and it became even stronger as I faced prostate cancer.

Randy Alcorn wrote a very good book titled "If God is Good" Philip Yancy wrote 2 best selling books on the subject "Disappointment With God" and "Where is God When It Hurts" James Dobson wrote an excellent book titled "When God Doesn't Make Sense"

I believe it's theological mistake to convict God in any way because of the evil of others, or sickness, and disease we have in this world.

From my theological point of view you need to look at God's plan from the beginning, and where the going is heading, found in the book of Revelation. The bible demonstrates very clearly that evil as well as disease is temporary.

So I was able to go through my experiences with prostate cancer with the following beliefs:

1. God permitted cancer in my life, He didn't give to me

2. God is with me when I suffer. That suffering has meaning in this world and the next.

3. God will use my suffering for my good and the good of others

4. God does not take suffering away but gives meaning to my suffering.

5. Because I am in a Covenant relationship He will never leave or forsake me

6. He is a God who answers prayers, but doesn't necessarily remove pain and suffering from our lives

7. God has the last word on suffering and it's GOOD. Jesus says

Rev 21:4

And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.

I believe That's the world everyone wants to live in, and that's world God promises to those who believe in Him and His son, Jesus.

My experiences with prostate cancer didn't even cause a mild tremor to my faith in God.It had the opposite effect it strengthened my faith.

I didn't share this to argue, or convince anyone, nor will I engage in theological debates. I shared this to say prostate grew me in my faith, rather than took my faith away.

Post edited by: RickRed40, at: 05/02/2012 02:57 PM

First of all I am very pleased with the manner in which this topic is being discussed.

It is very refreshing to see people allow other people ideas and feelings that they

may not agree with.

My take on this is, perhaps, a little different than what the other men have spoken of.

My take on this issue is only mine. I neither deny it nor encourage it for anyone else.

It started long before my PCa diagnosis.

I have never thought that I would be talking about this here on this site.

As a gay man I have long been exposed to other peoples versions of god. Small g, for

my own reasons. The hatred, small mindedness and bigotry that I have experienced has

had, needless to say, a great impact on me. Let me also add that while I think of the

bible as great book, it is not the "word of god" to me.

Schpier, keep in mind that Navaho PARENTS would not stop their children from touching

fire, so that the children would learn about all of fires' powers. (hope I said that right)

My god has given me alcoholism and PCa. I would be both stupid and short sighted if

I told you my life is a stroll through the tulips. BUT my god has given me some tulips.

My god has taught me the hard lesson that I needed to know great sorrow to be able to

know great happiness.

I have come to a point in my life where my god is NOT my problem, it is other peoples

gods. I have become very sensitive to the difference between sharing and shoving. I

welcome people sharing their god with me, but when they shove their god onto me, I draw

a line.

This is truly a lonely path we take. It has to be lonely because we each need to find

what works for us. Some of us take the long way around and pass through some really

dark and dismal places. Some people even stop along the way and build a house and stay where they are. I don't know if it is fear, doubt or exhaustion that stops them, but stop they do. But, if we keep putting one foot in front of the other, we come to a place of light, calm and peace.

I hate alcoholism and I hate cancer. I am loathed to say that I have either one, but to

be painfully honest I am a better person for it. I'm not some Pollyanna always smiling and laughing. I cry and curse and feel sorry for myself. But something keeps me going,

and just when I think I have forgotten what that is, I remember! I have a god. Could be

me, could be all of you. Could be this warm and bright morning. Could even be the flowers

I planted last year. It could be the tears I cried all alone and late last night because my dog came to me and nuzzled my hand. I think it is all those things and even more. I change, and it changes too.

Hope that this has somehow made some sense and proves to be useful.

I know that it has helped me by trying to write about it and put my feelings into words.

Thanks for a great topic and thanks for the other shares.

kapm

HAVE NO IDEA WHAT, IF ANYTHING, THIS CALLED. BUT IT IS WHAT I BELIEVE.

Post edited by: kapm, at: 05/02/2012 09:16 AM

I, too, am pleased and impressed with the tone of this thread. It's being handled well, with courtesy and deep sharing.

When I read the first message, I was taken back to age 24 when my baby daughter died of SIDS. Thankfully, for me, I had knowledge of SIDS prior to that tragic occurrence, and the facts helped me, along with a deep and innate belief that 'things happen for a reason', 'there is no problem without a gift for you it it's hands', and 'you are given or have the strength to handle anything that happens in your life'. (previously, I experienced a significant assault when i was 15, and my father committed suicide when I was a week shy of 20).

My beliefs are widely universal; I believe in everything, and I also believe we chart our own course through more than one lifetime.

I thought that it must be even harder for someone that is 58 and just experiencing their first tragedy that causes them to question their core beliefs, than it was for me to experience tragedy at a young age.

I hope you are able to use this experience to look deep and come away with a renewed (or changed) set of core beliefs that will make you stronger and that will bring you comfort.

Prostate cancer is a shock, and this forum is here to provide support on the journey you wished you weren't taking. I recommend that you read through the previous postings and educated yourself on what options are available. And keep coming back; we are here to help.

I was a devout Catholic during the first half of my life. I was especially attracted to the Church because of its emphasis on social justice. However, I was also in conflict with the Church because of my sexuality (I'm gay). I suppressed my sexuality until I was 30 and could no longer feel like a whole human being. By that time, the Church had grown increasingly conservative, which included being anti-gay. At that point, I rejected the Church and decided to live my life the way I saw fit. I guess I rejected God as well, even though I knew that I could maintain a relationship with God without needing a religious institution. But I guess there was always a part of me that viewed humans as just another part of nature, without a god controlling or intervening, and that part of me took over when I left the Church. I accept that life is full of joys and sorrows, with cancer being one of those sorrows. But from my cancer experience I have also experienced the joy of having a loving partner and supportive friends, including my primary care doctor. While I don't think I'm going to die of this disease, I accept the possibility. I will admit, however, that I have a harder time accepting the fact that the treatment robs you, at least to a certain extent, of your sexuality, something that took me so many years to embrace in the first place. But I see it as all part of living life.

Thanks to all those who have written in response to my thoughts. They are all poignant, intimate insights that I greatly respect and appreciate.  

It is clear both from both this and a previous all -too-recent   near fatal illness of mine (unrelated and from which I have made a complete recovery)-  that there are many "learning opportunities" and spiritual growth to be gained from these experiences - IF and only IF one is fortunate to have all of : 

1. Sufficient time ( recovery, remission, chronicity)  to "learn those lessons"

2.  The intellectual capacity to appreciate those elements of spiritual growth and perspective.

3. An outlet for manifesting or sharing those learned lessons.  Absent that outlet, any lessons or insights learned and  spiritual growth experienced   would be purely inner, self-centred, ?? selfish phenomena -with no benefit at all to the rest of humanity or the world. 

Irrespective of my own personal situation, those who do NOT have or cannot experience  ALL of  the 3 criteria listed  above -will have suffered WITHOUT  purpose, meaning or any other positive results/ outcomes.  

I am very familiar with Kushner's series of books.  It is all very well for him and others in similar situations to be able to "re-invent"  God as a simple mechanism whereby their own individual suffering may be relieved, attenuated or explained. I respect them for their imaginative intellectual exercise, whose "product" ( the disempowered God) is now conveniently excused from responsibility and therefore immune from criticism . 

However, what of that baby who died from SIDS, that infant whose limbs were torn asunder by nazi monsters and those who simply starved to death - ALL of whom suffered and died without the privilege of learning/experiencing some lesson, spiritual growth etc. or "re-inventing" God???

I grieve for THOSE sacred beings  and NOT for me.  It is simply inadequate to re-invent or redefine God as a somewhat powerless being, one who simply created this miraculous experience called "life" - and then is either unwilling or unable to empower all of his/her/its creations with the opportunity for these lessons of spiritual growth (those helpless babies and infants).

 This works ONLY for those who are able ( having satisfied the criteria I listed ) to attain a perspective OTHER  than overt suffering - as has been mentioned by all the commentators.  

Again, I can only repeat my observation of the very real situations where  "redefinition and re-invention"  are USELESS philosophical exercises for those infants babies and by extension ALL , suffering animals, insects , fish etc.  

I shall attempt to locate those books referenced in the comments. I am also (as a distraction ) engaged in reading more of Nietzsche's thoughts on this and similar subjects (The Gay Science, Thus Spake Zarathustra ) 

--I await his comments at this forum with interest !! 

Ref; Your criteria

Just some very simple things.

1. Some people may never learn. While others may have a sudden "light bulb coming on" moment. Your point is well taken, but the passage of time does not guarantee learning. I would think that WHAT fills that time is more important than how long it takes to learn something.

2. Intellectual capacity and intellectual level BOTH need to be considered. Most people I know appreciate spiritual growth and perspective because they FEEL RIGHT and they FEEL GOOD about them. While other may wax philosophical, I choose the people who FEEL, even if they aren't always able to explain why they FEEL the way they do. Being able to explain things is wonderful and rewarding. But far to often words will take us away from and distance us from what we need to be "up close and personal" with. After all it is usually fear and doubt ( 2 strong feelings ) that makes us ponder these questions in the first place.

Finally, I really think that if you can't see intellectual capacity or an intellectual level in others, then you are missing them yourself.

3. I would be lost without some kind of outlet for my sharing. But knowing the difference between sharing and preaching is very important. I must also learn to listen and respect those who choose ( for what ever reason ) to share by example, and not words. The lessons they teach are subtle, but all the more powerful for their quiet.

A final observation on your "redefinition and reinvention" are USELESS. While babies, fish, animals and men and women all share the spark of life. We are not the same. I think that path leads us to unnecessary conflicts and confusion. The only useless exercise is the one we don't learn from.

Hope this makes some kind of sense. This is not my strong point, but your subject has been a great one and generated some wonderful and thoughtful courteous replies.

kapm

What an outstanding discussion, I am extremely grateful for all of your posts; there is much wisdom shared. Two add my two cents worth to the discussion. I have been lucky in some ways in that life has not challenged me to question its nature too many times in my life; reading your posts and what some of you have gone through and are still dealing with makes me wonder how I would of handled it. I can only speak to myself and my path. In terms of my PC, I saw my early diagnosis as a gift for it allowed me options to choose from in my healing; I am grateful as to how my PC has manifested in my life, that is not saying that I am grateful to have had it.

Like many, I too was brought up with religion in my life which by the time I was a teenager, I discarded it. The dogma of religion and the variety of religions in the world did not make sense; if there was one God, how could there be so many religions? I detected/realized that religion had been created by man for their convenience and power.

For many years I was an atheist, my training as a scientist certainly supported that view, but as time went on, the concept of spirituality, which is what is really at the root of all religions, has been growing stronger and stronger in my life. The concept of a Higher Power rather than a God as that deity sitting in a throne somewhere in the ether is what now prevails in my life. I have looked for the common threads in all religions to find the truth that has not been corrupted by man; it reminds me of the metaphor for when there is an argument between two, that each has their own perspective and the truth lies somewhere in between. The same can be said about religion and God.

The God we were taught about as children in Sunday school does not exist; he will not heal the sick and will not stop the atrocities of humanity. What I have realized for myself, God (my Higher Power) is the collective conscience of living things. It is the fundamental goodness in all of us that is connected on a higher plane which is God. To use another metaphor, we are each a collection of a trillion cells which define our corporal body, all the cells work together and communicate as they need to, to allow us to be; it is in the same way that each living thing is another cell in the body we call God. We can all have access to God or our higher power if we choose to, but as has been discussed many don’t or do so under the vehicle (with its corruption) of religion. The purpose of all life then is then to move forward to the realization that we are One. It seems to me that the major prophets in all religions realized this in their lives.

So to address the original premise of the discussion, how can God allow cancer and suffering in the world? he doesn’t allow and doesn’t support or promote its existence, it is not God’s function. I do believe we can achieve healing by tapping into our higher power (i.e. tapping into the collective conscience); we are doing this in part by being in this forum. Prayer can be a path to connecting to collective conscience that will promote healing; unfortunately, begging on ones knees will not promote that link; it needs to come from within, a place I only occasionally tap. Is my spirituality stronger because of my PC? I would have to say yes. Am I there yet? in many ways I am just embarking on the journey. I am still wrestling with many of the questions of what is my ego and what is my higher power’s will for me.

Post edited by: paperplane, at: 05/05/2012 08:41 AM