Lyme Disease Support Group

I know this thread is a little off key and it's certianly open to criticism, but I am genuinely intersted in hearing what people know or think about this?

I deal with lyme day in and day out and its diffcult to even consider drinking sometimes feeling the way that I do; However, there are times where I don't feel too bad and I still crave a beer now and then.

And quite frankley im stressed - this is by far the hardest thing I've encountered in my life and im having a difficult time finding ways to relax and escape. Naturally, drinking with my friends on the weekends used to be my escape.

My question is HOW bad are a few beers once in awhile? Does it set you back to ground zero, or if you have lyme somewhat in control, will one or two beers will not make a huge impact?

I guess I already know the answer (I just don't want to hear it!). I did some research and there seems to be two camps. Some say that one or two on occassion is ok if tolerated, while others suggest no drinking FOREVER.

Let's be honest, once you have Lyme you have Lyme. Some deal with it constantly, while others are in remission, but does this mean folks in remission need to avoid alcohol as well?

PS - I am on antibiotics too, have been for 6 months, and not one drink. Although St Patricks day is coming up and I'd like to celebrate my heratige - like a [/i]normal person =)

"Why Lyme and Alcohol don't mix"

Here's a couple reason why lyme and alcohol don't mix. 

This taken from lymenet: 

"The toxins from lyme and the chemicals from drugs and alcohol can destroy vital liver function. 

Most patients with lyme ALREADY have liver damage and dysfunction, most specifically with the Cytochrome P-450 liver detoxification pathway. That makes is very hard to process out many toxins and toxic byproducts. It is this same pathway that is required to metabolize alcohol. 

To consume alcohol can cause a very dangerous increase in the level of porphyrins in the body. In excess, porphyrins cause symptoms identical to a herx. 

In extreme cases, excess porphryin loads can be fatal but, in lesser levels, they kill cells all though the body but mostly in the liver and the nervous system (including brain cells)." 

This is what Dr M explained to me: 

I know all this is hard to understand so I asked Dr M in Canada why we can't drink and this is how he summed it up: most alcoholic drinks have sugar and wheat and ingredients that spirochetes eat. So they all come out and go into an eating frenzy. When they are active like this they put out toxins. Well these toxins make us feel "drunk" quickly.

Then when the alcohol hits your blood stream, it kills the spirochetes. Thus giving off the toxins from the dying chetes. So we have a herx reaction. The reason it is so bad, is cuz alcohol crosses the blood brain barrier. So it kills them in our brains. So it pretty much explains why we get drunk so fast then have such a bad hangover ther next day. 

Here's some links with more articles: 

Department of Medicine, New York Medical College, Valhalla. Rats fed excessive amounts of ethanol developed marked hematologic and immunologic changes.

These included a reversal of the normal lymphocyte to granulocyte ratio in the peripheral blood, lower spleen and lymph node weights and a greatly reduced capacity to express normal cell mediated immune functions, based on poor lymphocyte reactivity in vivo, and in vitro to T and B cell mitogens and borrelial antigens shortly after primary immunization with the bacterial spirochete, Borrelia burgdorferi.

Further evidence for impaired immune function caused by ethanol was based on little or no antibody response against Borrelia in rats following in vivo sensitization with B. burgdorferi incorporated in complete Freund's adjuvant.

These findings provide substantial direct evidence strengthening the notion that high levels of ethanol ingestion adversely affect the host immune system and can interfere with the immune response to microorganisms. 

HERES ANOTHER 

"Spirochetes have a limited metabolism and can only ferment a few types of organic molecules. They ferment carbohydrates to acetate, ethanol , CO2, and H2 as major end products. 

All spirochetes so far examined use the Embden-Meyerhoff-Parnas pathway to take glucose to pyruvate. Under anaerobic conditions this is converted to acetate and ethanol using common fermentative pathways. Interestingly, the facultative anaerobes in the group use both oxidative phosphorylation and substrate level phosphorylation in the presence of air and seem to be dependent on at least some fermentation. 

The TCA cycle has not been detected in these microbes, and it is unclear how they get their ATP by oxidative phosphorylation. B. burgdorferi will also move away from ethanol and butanol. Ethanol binds to NMDA receptors in the brain (inhibiting them) and perhaps to GABAA receptors as well. Alcohol, neurotransmitter systems, and behavior. 

From: The Journal of General Psychology Date: 10/1/2006 Alcohol affects several neurotransmitter systems within the brain. In this article, the author describes its effects on 5 major ones: glutamate, gamma-amino-butyric acid (GABA), dopamine, serotonin, and opioid systems. 

Acute ethanol intoxication caused a marked suppression of NK activity in vivo and a tenfold increase in the number of MADB106 tumor metastases. Ethanol had no effect in rats selectively depleted of NK cells or when an NK-insensitive tumor (C4047) was used. 

These findings suggest that even acute ethanol intoxication markedly suppresses NK activity in the living organism. This suppression may underlie some aspects of the association between alcoholism, infectious disease and malignancies. (NK are natural killer cells…our first line of defense against precancerous cells.) 

Clin Diagn Lab Immunol. 2002 Mar;9(2):282-6. Impaired bactericidal activity and host resistance to Listeria monocytogenes and Borrelia burgdorferi in rats administered an acute oral regimen of ethanol. PMID: 11874864 Vasdev S, Mian T, Longerich L, Prabhakaran V, Parai S. N-acetyl cysteine attenuates ethanol induced hypertension in rats. Artery 1995;21(6):312-6 "All known pathways of ethanol metabolism result in the production of acetaldehyde, a highly reactive compound. 

N-acetyl cysteine, an analogue of the dietary amino acid cysteine, binds acetaldehyde, thus preventing its damaging effect on physiological proteins. (Above…unfortunately Bb has "zinc fingers" composed of:cysteine and histidine bound by zinc) 

We have a "limited" amt. of the 2 enzymes needed to breakdown alcohol - alcohol deyhdrogenase is the first one. Women have less of this enzyme than do men. 

Since the spirochetes are ALREADY fermenting sugar to ethanol/alcohol...adding a drink or two or more...may make things WORSE...significantly. I have many more ethanol/alcohol files if you need them. 

Pay close attention to HOW Flagyl works. Flagyl + "extra" alcohol = alcohol poisoning (very life threatening). PMID: 1774157 [PubMed - indexed for ME 

And last but not least, to those on Flagyl: 

Flagyl (Metronidazole) Interactions With Alcohol Flagyl is the brand name of metronidazole, an antibiotic used to treat a variety of infections, from stomach ulcers to meningitis.

(Metronidazole is also found in some other brand name antibiotics, including ; check your antibiotic's label.) Most of Flagyl's side effects are run-of-the-mill, such as nausea and vomiting.

However, Flagyl is reported to interact dangerously with another common drug: alcohol. 

Drinking even a small amount of alcohol (ethanol) while taking Flagyl can make a person very sick. Flagyl and alcohol together cause severe nausea and vomiting, flushing, fast heartbeat (tachycardia), and shortness of breath.

The reaction has been described as being similar to the effects of Antabuse, a drug that treats alcoholism by causing patients to become very sick when they drink. 

Obviously, beverages containing alcohol should not be consumed during treatment with Flagyl, but small amounts of alcohol can be found in hidden sources as well.

Some kinds of mouthwash and cold medicine contain alcohol. Small amounts may also be served at religious services. Patients should avoid all of these alcohol sources while taking Flagyl and for 48 hours following the end of treatment. 

What Causes the Bad Reaction? Because the Flagyl-alcohol reaction is said to resemble the Antabuse-alcohol reaction, researchers originally assumed that they work the same way. Ordinarily, the liver breaks down ethanol in two steps: first into acetaldehyde, then into acetic acid.

Antabuse inhibits the second step, causing levels of acetaldehyde in the blood to rise. The increased blood acetaldehyde causes the acute symptoms of vomiting, flushing, etc. 

More recent research has shown that Flagyl does not inhibit the breakdown of acetaldehyde, and that blood acetaldehyde does not increase when Flagyl and alcohol are combined. Therefore, some other mechanism must be at work.

One set of researchers (Karamanakos et al. 2007) suggested it may be related to increased serotonin because they were able to show that Flagyl increases brain serotonin in rats.

Another set of researchers (Visapää et al. 2002) noted that there are only 10 human case reports of a bad Flagyl-alcohol reaction and suggested that the problem may not be as common as previously thought. They did, however, note that it is possible that this "reaction can occur in some subgroups," so it is still wise to avoid mixing Flagyl and alcohol. 

Read more: http://www.brighthub.com/science/medical/articles/ 33423.aspx#ixzz0f4yq6Pz1 

I know for me when I am stressed and overwhelmed I want to use what I know to help myself relax/cope. But it isn't good for me anymore now that I know I have Lyme.

Maybe try finding an alternative to drinking? Will be hard at first, but might become something you really enjoy. I do yoga and meditation. I've done yoga for years, but am using it more when things get overwhelming now.

And just in my own experience... the few times I drank when I was younger it hit me hard. Now I knwo I had Lyme... but the way alcohol makes me feel, I don't enjoy it at all.

The key is to find alternate ways to relax and take the edge off. I started doing bikram yoga and found my urge to drink plummet.

I would HIGHLY recommend abstaining from even one drink. I personally just feel very guilty and look back on it and wonder "what if I hadn't had that drink," so ultimately its harmful in a number of ways

A couple months ago, I decided that I would avoid beer (which is kind of a triple whammy with alcohol + yeast + wheat) and mixed drinks (alcohol + sugar), but treat myself to one small glass of red wine per month.

But as soon as I decided this, I was put on LDN (low dose naltrexone) by my LLMD for my low white blood cell count, which has a big "Do not drink alcohol" sticker on the bottle.

So, I guess that's that. It's probably for the best. What I would give for an Old Pal, though... *sigh*. I tell myself (this isn't based on anything, but it helps me) that every time I mess up diet-wise, it sets me back two or three more days. Nothing I crave is worth being sick longer.

Sometimes when my husband has a drink, I'll have club soda in a nice glass with lemon or some muddled mint and lime or whatever. Silly, but it works.

I've been alcohol-free for about 6 months too. Stay strong!

Quite honestly I don't miss the smoking at all and if I ever get to drink again it will be only a few, not so many that I black out. I think it's a good idea to not drink until you are completely cured.

And yes I say "cured" because I do believe there is an end to this. It's a bacterial infection for crying out loud, not a terminal illness.

One thing I did learn once I quit drinking was I have no friends left. It's sad, but obviously they weren't worth it anyways.

I like to think that regardless of contracting this disease (and a handful of other infetions FML), in a lot of ways im blessed. Sometimes I really feel like this happened for a reason and it was God's way of telling me (or forcing me) to stop taking life for granted.

It funny to think about the things that I used to get angry/depressed over. I'd love to be that niave again, oh well...I digress

However, I still don't really have clarification on people that have lyme "in remission". Are these individuals allowed to endulge in a drink once and awhile (please say yes)? It will give me an additional motivator, to know that I will be able to enjoy one of life's small luxuries again...

B

Until then I look at the bill when it comes after a date night with my hubby and see what a bargain we are getting with me only ordering water! LOL

There's always a silver lining. You just have to look for it.

Lauren

P.S. If you're interested, I just wrote an article on my life with Lyme and my faith... In other words, not taking life for granted, etc., for a local paper. I also posted it on my blog.

You're more than welcome to read it if you think it might give wisdom. Not forcing it on anyone, though. www.ponderingsanddiscoveries.blogspot.com

We're cheap dates, huh?

For example, I'm taking two of Byron White formulas, Jernigan Yeast Ease & Neuro-Antitox II, and Pekana drainage formulas, which all contain a small amounts of organic alcohol.

My LLMD said that it wouldn't harm my liver, now I'm wondering if it is prudent to be taking anything with alcohol in it???

I know that you can't take flagyl with any alcohol whatsoever.

A-L and B-Bart have natural cyst busters that are apparently okay to use with alcohol.

Does anyone else have this concern?