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cave76
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A question for those here who use herbs or supplements to conquer Lyme. It's widely accepted that a spirochete that's been 'threatened' (by antibiotics) will then change into a cyst form. [For those not yet familiar with this please read the abstract below-- a pretty widely accepted 'theory' and usually treated with Flagyl, for those that want to take antibiotics. This has been around since the late '90s, but I've never seen it discussed by alternatives users.] So, my question---- what do people who take herbs or supps. do to 'bust open' that cyst form. It's a pretty important issue, most doctors think. APMIS. 1999 Jun;107(6):566-76. An in vitro study of the susceptibility of mobile and cystic forms of Borrelia burgdorferi to metronidazole. Brorson O, Brorson SH. Department of Microbiology, Vestfold Sentralsykehus, Tønsberg, Norway. The aim of this study was to examine the susceptibility of mobile and cystic forms of Borrelia burgdorferi to metronidazole. Because B. burgdorferi is a microaerobic bacterium like Helicobacter pylori, metronidazole (MZ) was chosen in the susceptibility test. For both microaerobic and aerobic incubation the normal mobile spirochetes were resistant to this antibiotic with an MBC > or = 512 microg/ml. Conversion of mobile spirochetes to cystic forms was not observed when they were incubated with MZ. When they were incubated under microaerobic conditions, the biologically active cystic forms had an MBC > or = 4 microg/ml, but the MBC was > or = 32 microg/ml with aerobic incubation at 37 degrees C. Staining with acridine orange (AO), dark field microscopy (DFM), and transmission electron microscopy (TEM) revealed that the contents of the cysts were degraded when the concentration of MZ was > or = MBC. Some cysts were also ruptured. When incubated with a sufficient concentration of MZ, core structures did not develop inside the cysts, and AO revealed less RNA in the cysts. Our observations may help efforts to treat resistant infections caused by B. burgdorferi with a combination of MZ and other antibiotics in order to eradicate both cystic and mobile forms of B. burgdorferi. PMID: 10379684 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] |
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jaime1978 Posts: 2399
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cave, I don't have time to read thru all this right now, but had heard that grapefruit seed extract is a good cyst buster, what do u know abou that?? Please do not take anything I say as medical advice. I am not a doctor.
~lyme disease support group leader~
please pm me with any special concerns |
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fluffyluggage Posts: 4723
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I had read somewhere, but I can't find the resource--pressed for time, but maybe Ron has it?--that P73 Oil of Oregano can do the same, along with the GSE?? Ron, can you help me out here, buddy? *hugs* Connie may know also, as she saw the doctor I'm looking at going to after the first of the year--maybe she can hop on and give us an answer. Just because it's impossible doesn't mean it can't happen.
I'm not a doc, so anything I say is my opinion only. Nothing I say is meant as offense, I offer what I can as help. I believe in educating myself on all my medical issues and being my own advocate, for no one else with do that on my behalf. I recommend we all do the same!
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Perhaps I truly am insane for expecting these docs to listen to me when I say the same things repeatedly to no avail? LOL. I am tired of seeking out new docs and getting the same result time and again...Forgive me if I seem bitter some days.
Something has changed within me/Something is not the same/I'm through with playing by/The rules of someone else's game/Too late for second-guessing/Too late to go back to sleep/It's time to trust my instincts/Close my eyes and leap...I'm through accepting limits/Cuz someone says they're so/Some things I can not change/But till I try I'll never know/Too long I've been afraid of/Losing love I guess I lost/Well if that's love/It comes at much too high a cost/I'd sooner buy Defying Gravity/Kiss me good-bye I'm Defying Gravity/I think I'll try Defying Gravity/And you won't bring me down...
--Defying Gravity (Glee Cast version) |
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cave76
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The grapefruit seed extract thingy sorta died a quiet death when 'questions were raised' about if it was the preservative in the GSE that was disturbing the cysts.  I haven't followed up too faithfully, but that was in vitro as was the original studies made using Flagyl. Which of course puts all 'evidence' in a small light of suspicion. The question still remains but it seemed to have lost some of it's pertinence. I like GSE (or is it something else almost the same name?) for wiping down my counter and washing veggies in. When I remember to use it. |
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jaime1978 Posts: 2399
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something else I also heard was that those of us who use abx are just putting them into cyst form, or something to that effect, supressing them, so to speak. I don't know if there's a win win answer to actually "curing" lyme, so to speak, but I certainly know of many people who've gone into remission in both sides of the spectrum, alties and conventionals. we really are the front runners for those to come, the guinea pigs, if you will....lucky us  Please do not take anything I say as medical advice. I am not a doctor.
~lyme disease support group leader~
please pm me with any special concerns |
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cave76
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Jaime said: something else I also heard was that those of us who use abx are just putting them into cyst form, or something to that effect, supressing them, so to speak. That was in the abstract you were too busy to read. It's a good theory. And it's been around a fairly long time. When you have the time read: http://www.molecularalzheimer.org/ He's been investigating the Lyme/Alzheimer's connections. (This was also in the movie Under Our Skin. I believe you viewed it?) A lot of his findings are still in the 'hypothesis' stage---- but almost too much to ignore as just a theory. Brorson and Brorson have also done a lot of studies about the spirochetal form and it's cyst stage. PubMed will have all their studies. But they haven't done any in vivo studies. MacDonald has 'pics' of the cyst stage. It still remains to be seen if 'just' taking Flagyl (with another abx) will get rid of them altogether. Too many people have done that only to either not get remission or to relapse later. There ARE no answers YET. Only hypotheses. And you're right---- there's no win/win yet. But I'll stick with the 'hypotheses' that have some background in the science field. I'm not sure this is the thread Buckron wants this discussed or not (he seems to have brought it up in another thread) but I'm wondering if alternative method users have something besides testimonials ("I feel good now") to offer about the eradication (opening up) of cysts using herbs or supplements. And if it 'works' better or longer than antibiotics. Perhaps if they contacted Dr. MacDonald, he might have some information for them. I'm certainly open minded about that possibility. |
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mem6757
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No Problem I like this thread Cyst form? Bio film spiros? If they are hiding in cyst form we may not know it for a long time right? The "smart" bacteria or parasite (spirochete) seems to wait for your defenses to weaken before they emerge again.I think sooner or later they come out and it could very well be the 28 day cycle (moon cycle)and hopefully they are killed.I also believe essential oils kill them as they penetrate every cell in your body.The biofilm version of the spirochete is so smart it hides where there is very little blood like tendons cartilage joint fluid but i am as lost as most people concerning this disease so complicated the L form biofilms etc.I think i am in remission fingers crossed,it has always come back before but this time i am whacking the Oil of Oregano into me big time..I finally quit having major herxs from it so 10 or more drops are my daily dose along with 30 Samento and all the other stuff.If i get no relapse i mean think i killed the crap forever i think most likely i would have to be symptom free for years and years before claiming a victory..wow long post! |
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cave76
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Here's part of that information I found about the Brorson's GSE and cyst killing properties. And part of the reason that the GSE (as cyst buster) died a quiet death. Pharmazie. 1999 Jun;54(6):452-6. Aspects of the antimicrobial efficacy of grapefruit seed extract and its relation to preservative substances contained. von Woedtke T, Schlüter B, Pflegel P, Lindequist U, Jülich WD. Institute of Pharmacy, Ernst Moritz Arndt University, Greifswald, Germany. The antimicrobial efficacy as well as the content of preservative agents of six commercially available grapefruit seed extracts were examined. Five of the six extracts showed a high growth inhibiting activity against the test germs Bacillus subtilis SBUG 14, Micrococcus flavus SBUG 16, Staphylococcus aureus SBUG 11, Serratia marcescens SBUG 9, Escherichia coli SBUG 17, Proteus mirabilis SBUG 47, and Candida maltosa SBUG 700. In all of the antimicrobial active grapefruit seed extracts, the preservative benzethonium chloride was detected by thin layer chromatography. Additionally, three extracts contained the preserving substances triclosan and methyl parabene. In only one of the grapefruit seed extracts tested no preservative agent was found. However, with this extract as well as with several self-made extracts from seed and juiceless pulp of grapefruits (Citrus paradisi) no antimicrobial activity could be detected (standard serial broth dilution assay, agar diffusion test). Thus, it is concluded that the potent as well as nearly universal antimicrobial activity being attributed to grapefruit seed extract is merely due to the synthetic preservative agents contained within. Natural products with antimicrobial activity do not appear to be present. PMID: 10399191 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] |
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cave76
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Yes it does, according to that abstract, which was in vitro and for use on 'medical devices'. I'd have to take a guess, but a medical 'device' could be several devices used in a hospital---- such as an endoscope. And also remember that staph infections can be 'influenced' much much faster than Bb due to the very long replication time of Bb, esp. compared to staph. A 'simple' wipe down of a medical device with oregano oil (for staph) can't be compared to rubbing on or breathing oregano oil for Bb. Much as we would like it to be. |
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