Cirrhosis Support Group

Hi all,

Is anyone bothered by spider nevi? I have several tiny ones cropped up over the last few months on my nose, chest and upper arms. Does this indicate late stage disease? Also do some ever go away or are these just going to keep popping up all over the place as my liver gets worse. I'm already frightened enough with the itching but now this. Mine are very very small. About 2mm.

Hi Guirar - Unfortinately this is part of the "journey" - you'll be okay - just be sure to let your Dr know - Ru

Hi Ruth ,

I already let my doctor know but he said they were extremely small and probably not spider nevi. The specialist had a look and said one or 2 were spiders but not as bad as others she had seen. Just wondering if these would still appear in early cirrhosis. Mine developed over the course of the past 6 months. I didn't have any at all till I stopped drinking?

I got 'em too Guitar... Little junior spiders. Mine are 3 to 6mm, irregularly shaped pinkish/purplish smudges on my chest like a child was having some fun with a felt tip marker. I had a couple for many months before I quit, then quite a few more in the months after I quit. Mostly on my chest, but one right on my cheek. Then there are a couple superficial blood vessels that also popped up on my face (nose, neck and lip). They aren't too noticeable to others, but I see them every morning when I shave.

My palmar erythima didn't show up until after I quit drinking either! What's that all about!

I don't think they are a sign of advanced disease... Just a common sign in alcoholism. The truly dangerous spiders of cirrhosis are supposed to have a "raised central arteriole, with little venous legs radiating out from this raised central arteriole". If you google around on the images of them, you'll see the ones with this central raised red bump surrounded by little veins. I think these are the truly dangerous ones.

An interesting side note... The term "spiders" was first noticed by a New York doctor while he was having a drink in a bar. He overheard the barmaid talking to her co-worker about "the spiders on another patron's face" and wondered what on earth she was talking about. When she told him the broken blood vessels on her more seriously alcoholic regulars looked like spiders in the dim light of the bar, the doctor looked for himself and proceded to document this association with alcoholism and surface blood vessels or "spiders" on the face in a published medical journal. The term caught on from there and stuck.

Long story short, lots of older drinkers get them, but probably not all of them have advanced cirrhosis.

Post edited by: MoonWatcher, at: 06/16/2012 07:35 AM

Hi MoonWatcher,

Doesn't sound like you have spider angioma but I do have what you describe as the reddish smudge. I have one on my chest about 1cm diameter. I have the broken capillaries also 'Paper Money' skin. The strange thing is that I had none of these before I quit drinking? Perhaps I just never noticed. I guess I am hoping that I am not in very advanced disease. I read so much of some people having no symptoms and normal bloods right up until close to the end! I wonder if I was advanced would my ultrasound have shown more than just 'slight coarse echotexture'. I mean surely looking at the outside of the liver tells little about the state of the inside.

Everyone's disease is so different.

I am stage 4. I have almost no itching. Very slight ascites. Never had a bleed. I have almost no spider nevi, slight Terry's nails (not even really sure I even have them), bilirubin sits almost normal levels, no liver flap and almost no HE. So....again, the symptoms we have very rarely corelate with the level of disease we have. The only sure way to know how serious the disease has become is with a biopsy to show tissue.

Of course things like coma and vomiting blood show late stage disease, as does significant ascites but just looking at symptoms does not corelate with stage of illness. My Hep tells me that all the time. I actually look pretty good (and feel not too bad except for pain and fatigue) considering my Hep figures I am only months away from transplant. I know it is tempting for all of us to look at the internet and self diagnose symptoms but there is just no sure way to know stage of illness without a biopsy.

Hi Sadlystillsane ,

I guess it just scares me that one can feel pretty good and then suddenly end up in liver failure. It really is a strange and cruel disease . I agree about the internet research thing. A lot of conflicting information out there.

Guitar

One of the main reasons for Gail starting our group's website http://mysickliver.weebly.com (and the expansion that we did not so long ago) was to provide a place for our member's to get information they could trust about this horrible disease. Gail and I hope that all of our members find the information they need, but also let us know where improvements can be made or identify subjects that we have not included. I try to keep it up-to-date with corrections and such but it is a rather large site and if another pair of eyes find something wrong, we also hope that they will let us know about anything that is unclear or "not quite right". There is a contact form available from any page on the site. We also have a presence on Facebook and Twitter under "MySickLiver". (caps not necessary)

Guitar

One doesn't feel fine and suddenly end up with liver failure unless they are exposed to some toxic substance or illness.And then you would still be really sick. End stage liver disease has symptoms , bad ones , One which thankfully you do not have.

Labs can be normal in compensated Cirrhosis But if you had advanced or decompensated Cirrhosis you would know it. Yes you can remain compensated for along time and then decompensate but your symptoms would also be different.By definition decompensation means a worsening of symptoms. You really should read the article about "CTP score" in the article section here an see the difference.Biopsy shows the cause of the disease usually and the point structural changes have advanced to. Fibrosis (scarring) must reach the point of stage 4 to be called Cirrhosis. The severity of disease after that point is based on Labs and complications.(A = compensated and not very sick; B = starting to decompensate , Problems with complications ; C = Decompensated , very sick.)

Advanced disease can last a long time also and labs do get worse as it progresses. You don't just wake up one morning with advanced disease and normal labs right before.

Yes if you had advanced disease your US would have shown more than coarse texture. It would also have shown more with earlier disease. US isn't always specific but it does show changes.

And looking at the outside of the liver tells plenty of information. size and texture are hallmarks of this disease.Biopsy does show cellular changes But the changes are represented in the texture of the liver it's self. US and Ct scans also show more than the outside of the liver especially Ct scans which shows layers of the liver it self.

As Dennis mentioned above the site's website covers tons of information. we worked very hard to make sure the information is accurate. That's why we don't allow unproven information on the site.

Please read the article I mentioned and see where you stand.

i agree and i believe that we all have a liitle of the same symptons as well as different ones. i was going through just a few small things back in 2005 but it seems lately things have been progressing. prayers are with you dear.....