Bipolar Support Group

I've been reading people's stories and I think that my husband is truly BP, probably with a personality disorder as well. I think he has always been, since I met him, but, having had no experience in my life with BP, alcoholism, etc., I didn't recognize it and assumed it was a misunderstanding on my part. I see now that is not the case; I'm okay, not perfect, but okay. I do have a long way to go before I will stop responding to him like a co-dependent, but I will get there. My major concern is my children. They are school age and I fear what this is all doing to them. I see now that they are beginning to respond to the ups and downs (the cycling happens every few days now--for example, he was totally manic this weekend, and by last night (Tues) he was irritable, cranky, mad, annoyed, and wanting to be alone; soon he'll spend all day in bed. FYI, please tell me if I have this concept of cycling correct. The children are confused by his behavior, my behavior, and our interactions. I can tell they are trying to sort out who is correct. It's fun when dad is manic and chasing them around the house, yelling all day. But, he always goes too far, and he hurts them, or bites them, in the play. If they complain too much, then he gets mad at them. Right now he is angry at my daughter and he won't let up (it's been a few days); she's only 8! I can tell she doesn't know what to do, but feels this is not right. So, I see his behavior beginning to make them unsure of themselves, make them subject themselves to uncomfortable situations in order to get his "happy" attention. They are dissecting whether what Daddy says about Mommy is true (Does Mommy talk on the phone too much? Does Mommy spend too much money at the grocery store? Does Mommy neglect Daddy and leave him out of things? etc.) I am uncomfortable leaving them alone with him for too long; it is a vague, not really justified discomfort, but I worry that he is not only a bad influence, but what if something happened? (A fire from the stove left on? A fire from a cigarette inappropriately disposed of? Someone really hurt because he sat on them? Days spent in bed watching movies, no lunch, no dinner, just benign neglect?) I stopped leaving them home alone with him when they were little because he would go to sleep (or pass out) and it was obvious that they had been completely unmonitored for the time I was gone. Now, they are older, but I just can't seem to allow them to be subjected to such a poor influence. I worry so much; it is actually a real fear. Yet, he is their father. If we were to divorce, he would have rights to them and there would be nothing I could do. I can't stand it. How do I protect them? I don't want my wonderful children to develop poor personal boundaries, to behave inappropriately because their beloved "dad model" does, to pick up his misogynist and misanthropic tendencies, to latch onto his lazy, irresponsible ways. Any thoughts on this? Anybody had experience with anything similar? Anyone know parental rights in these kinds of situations? (FYI, has been taking meds for bi-polar and depression for only about 6 months now and he is an active alcoholic (probably self-medicating), but he does not take responsiblity for his condition. Everything is someone else's fault--usually mine. This is all new in our lives--the diagnosis--but I have seen no signs that he at all accepts it as a problem. In fact, he thinks his doctors are wrong.

Dear ell,

I understand how you feel. I am married to my BP husband (he also has ADHD) and we have 2 young children. He is stable on/off on his medications, but when he cycles or lets his med refills lapse, this compassionate loving man turns into the "other" man, very much the same as what you describe in your post. It's bizarre, unpredictable, and always causes disruption and conflict in our home. I love my husband very much and my children adore their father, but I am also very concerned about our sweet young children, who see how loving their dad is to their mom for a while, then hear him angry, yelling and blaming mom for everything when he's not doing well. The thing is, when the illness is active, the thought process is distorted, so I find myself never knowing what to believe with him. If he's going thru an episode, after a while I just have to say something or at least ask him to please stop being so angry or argumentative or accusatory, or whatever...then he gets really mad and acts as though I'm blaming everything on his BP. He tries to make me feel as though I am crazy, that nothing is wrong with him, this pattern continues even though he's been in therapy for a year now! But the thing is, there is a distinctive difference in his 'normal' self (when he's stable on the meds and doing well), and his other behaviour that comes out when he's not stable. My husband was diagnosed 4 yrs ago and has been on many different med combos. This one seems to work more of the time, but the dosages need tweaking at the moment. The therapist has also warned me that he also has some kind of personality disorder that will take a good long while to work on, the BP makes the personality issues worse, and he also suffers from ADHD. I never in my wildest dreams thought I would ever have to deal with anything like this, but who does? I am interested to know how you handle his rants toward you? Do you argue back or ignore it? I know it does no good to argue, it's impossible to get anywhere, but I always try to stand up to him for some reason. I wasn't raised to get steamrolled over, and it makes me angry that the children hear the belittling things he says when he's like this. You say that your husband is bipolar and an alcoholic, is he by chance in therapy? The meds can be inactivated if he is still drinking alcohol. This is just not an easy situation any way you look at it. I can't stand the thought of anything happening to our family, but I am really struggling with what the right thing to do with young children is. I talk to them openly, try to 'explain' their Dad's behaviour (Daddy has a bad temper, I'm sorry for the yelling, this is HIS problem, YOU didn't do anything wrong, we love you, etc..) and that's all I can do. It sounds like you are doing what you can to protect them too. There is damage if the family breaks apart, and then damage if it stays together during unstable times. I don't know what the solution is! I worry about the same things you do with the children modeling their behaviour after their Dad, or even worse thinking it's a normal way of acting or family interaction. My husband also thinks everyone is making "too big of a deal out of his bipolar dx" and that he is always right and never wrong when blaming things on everyone else. I could use some insight on how you take care of yourself and your children when your husband is unstable?

Post edited by: 4support, at: 12/12/2007 14:16

Dear Ell,

Y'all seem to be quite focused on bipolar.

The mood swings, affectation, and general symptoms of periodic and chronic alcoholism look almost the same as BP.

What's more, no one can effectively treat BP with the ongoing influence of substance abuse/alcohol abuse.

I am dual diagnosed (BPI and alcoholic), and I had to start my recovery with detoxification (removing the substance from my body), focus on recovering from alcoholism/addiction, and finally with focus also on BP treatment.

With most of my alcoholic friends, the BP symptoms more or less vanished after a year or so (nominally) of sobriety.

That did not happen in my case, and, after more than a year of sobriety, I was officially and legally diagnosed with BP.

With me it was first things first. Sobriety was an essential first step.

Have you read any posts or articles on the DD FORUM?

http://www.mdjunction.com/dual-diagnosis

Kindest regards,

Jim

Thank you for adding an alternate perspective on the issue. Truthfully, I must be searching desperately for some reason for his behavior. The alcoholism has been identified as "the" problem by my therapist. But, frankly, he won't stop drinking. Or he can't. Or whatever. I don't know about alcoholism (other than living with one for 15 years!); that said, I still don't understand or know about it. It is stupid to say, but it never occurred to me that drinking 15 beers a night, every night of the week was not even near normal behavior. It was simply what he did. The fact that he doesn't fall down doesn't mean he's not impaired! He's so confusing and manipulating that I don't feel, in over 6 months of therapy, some joint, some alone, that my therapist has been able to decide on a single course of action. We vacillate between confronting him about the alcohol and my needing to be nicer to him--you know, give him hugs and kisses and make him feel special! I am thoroughly confused; don't feel believed; and feel mostly that we really haven't made any progress! The drinking has been discussed, very benignly and pleasantly, and he isn't going to stop; in fact, he isn't even going to act like he's trying to stop. He's told me he doesn't think he has a drinking problem and he'll take a look at it and cut down, but he doesn't want to think that he can't drink socially or have a beer here and there. He'll go to a pyschiatrist and take Effexor, and he'll take the Depakote, but he won't stop drinking. I am fairly confident he has not told his therapist or either one of his prescribing pychiatrists that he drinks, or how much and how often. He did start hiding the drinking some; I couldn't tell you exactly how much he drinks nightly at this time, but he still spends his evenings drinking. But it is off-limits for me to discuss it with him. His response is why do I keep harping on it? The problem is me. The drinking is just a diversion I bring up. Frankly, I can't discuss anything with him; he is not available or receptive. I just don't know what to do and feel like I have put in so much time, energy, tears, emotions, and have done major changes on myself and my bad habits. I don't drink anymore, I don't smoke, I'm running daily, again. But now I can't deal with him. I see how dysfunctional things are--but I can't tell anyone. They all "know" anyway. They just put it away like I did for so many years. My therapist mentioned joining Al-Anon, but they don't meet when I can attend. To attend a 7PM meeting, I would have to ask him to watch the children. ??? How am I going to do that? Maybe once, if I lie about where I'm going. But I don't want to lie. I'm done with lieing. I certainly can't establish a routine. Unless I were to confront and tell him, but I'm not ready to do that because he'll just leave and we'll have to divorce and then he'll have the kids and I'll be powerless to intervene if things are not okay. He'll still be an alchoholic with other potential/probable serious issues, except he'll have the children and I'll have no ability to make sure they are okay. I cannot accept that that is just the way it is and I'll have to trust that they'll be okay. They are children; I have a responsibility to protect them and not knowingly expose them to potentially dangerous or neglectful situations. I do not feel I am strong enough to deal with any threats he might throw my way or any challenges he may subject me to in divorce/child custody proceedings. I will check out the dual diagnosis site. Perhaps that is more relevant to my situation. Thank you, again!

Hello, I started to respond yesterday afternoon, but he came home early from work so I had to defer until today. I guess I have just become adept at covering up, picking up the slack and generally ignoring comments, behavior, and inappropriateness. It is as the children get older and enter into the situation via questions and concerns that I have to change my modus operandi. They hear what he says, so my ignoring it is not adequate now. I have to either address things when they happen so the children will have a model for boundaries and how to deal with inappropriate behavior and comments, or.... That is my dilemma. They know something is up, but their questions suggest they are trying to process things and decide who they think is right. I have told them things like Daddy can be mean when he is drinking. Ignore him. Or when Daddy gets out of control tickling you, or hurts you (ie. bites or hits too hard), then stay away from him. I try to tell them that they can control the situation by removing themselves. If they don't like something he does or says, stay away from him. Of course, that only works if he isn't so manic he's following them around the house (which is not that often). I also tell them that although Daddy is taking another nap, we are going to go do something, or do a chore, or something. It is his right to take a nap, but I think we could better use our time getting something done. He, predictably, does not like to hear this and accuses me of saying negative things about him to the kids, but I think they need to get the message that sleeping all day, all weekend is not acceptable behavior--once in a blue moon, but not as a habit. This seems to work, some, but I can tell they don't understand why Daddy would be mean to them or hurt them, or ignore their pleas to stop, or their requests that he leave them alone at the moment. My fear is that they will decide that he must be acting okay and they should just accept the behavior--people bite when they are wrestling, people tickle you to discomfort, people don't stop annoying you when you ask them to stop, people do spend all day in bed and do not contribute around the house, but allow a partner to do everything, etc. This would not be acceptable and I would fear what this will mean for them in their future friendships and love affairs. I try to say things about people and interactions in general, like friends don't purposely hurt each other (pysically or with words). I try to encourage helping each other, "we are a family; we help each other". I'll tell them that it is rude to ignore someone or to ignore a request that you stop doing something that is annoying. I ask them how people show love and discuss answers such as by being kind, by helping, by being considerate. But it feels like such a costant, daily struggle and I feel like I am losing. I am certainly not supported; he says any number of bizarre, mean, accusatory, unthinking, untrue things at any time. I never know from minute to minute, so I can never prepare and even after all these years, I find myself stunned and unable to respond, thus allowing my children to witness his saying something inappropriate and I do/say nothing in response, by my silence, validating his utterance, or worse apologizing to him. AArgh! It is too much for me sometimes.

Dear Ell,

Everything you are saying I can relate to, particularly the bizarre, mean, belittling, and untruthful comments which come out of nowhere while things are otherwise seemingly fine or going along well. This is always at the core of the conflict in our home, and as we stated before, at the base of what concerns me about what our young children are witnessing. It's honestly why I continue to question if I should leave him. He just doesn't seem to think his behaviour is "that bad". It's worse than bad, it's totally unacceptable and teaching our children the wrong things about how you treat your wife that you love. I feel very conflicted as well. In my situation, not only do I really love my husband, but I am a Christian and am trying to keep my family together. I feel there can also be a lot of damage to the children if the parents separate, so I keep trying to hang on for dear life as he continues therapy and hope that he will come to some kind of enlightenment before too long.

I should make clear that I have every compassion for someone suffering with bipolar disorder and ADHD. I have tried to get my husband the help he needs, helped him find countless psychiatrists and encouraged him to go to therapy. I have educated myself on BP disorder and tried to adapt, be more understanding, ignore, look at the nature of the illness, justify behaviours, etc...I have gone to therapy myself, read books, talked with countless people on these forums to try to understand more, tried to talk with my husband about the illness and how it also affects our family, but my support and understandiing never seems to be enough for him. He still thinks if I address anything ongoing... "hey, you know, you've been pretty argumentative and accusatory for the past 3 weeks, are you OK or do you think a visit to the doc is in order?" creates a ballistic fit on his part, and a flurry of unkind things said to me. This, to me, is not taking responsibility for his illness. As I said before, it is a blatant difference in his mood or behaviour at home, not just a bad day or 2.

I meet so many people who are doing everything they can to stay stable and manage this illness, who try to be aware when they are hurting their family, and who are doing great. It's very inspirational. Not every person with this disorder verbally abuses their spouse.

I wanted to throw in a couple of suggestions - sometimes it takes going thru a few therapists before finding "the right one". After 6 months of therapy, from what you are saying, the alcoholism is being discussed but not the underlying bipolar disorder, which can be made a lot worse by the alcoholism. The bipolar disorder has got to be addressed. Does your husband also see a psychiatrist for his meds? You simply being nicer to him is not going to change anything, and is ridiculous when it comes to him addressing his own behaviour and alcohol issues. Believe me, I tried this. He has to first admit that there is a serious problem here. Putting in more effort on your part is not going to 'cure' a chemical imbalance, any personality issues, or what seems to be a serious alcohol problem. HE is going to have be accountable for his own behaviour before the two of you can even begin to work toward any kind of resolution in your relationship.

The things you do to try to 'explain', 'redirect', or protect your children with is also what I do. I think it helps if you openly talk to them about what is going on, rather than ignore it as if everything is normal. I am also trying to minimize the confusion or the feeling that this behaviour is normal with them. Some spouses of bipolar sufferers have shared with me that as the children get older, they seem to understand much better. I did not grow up in a house with this going on, so I can't imagine how I would have felt as a young child witnessing the unpredictable behaviour and conflict which usually follows. I imagine it would have been scary.

Honestly, ell, it takes the patience of a saint, but sometimes a good therapist, doctor, and the right med combo and dosages is all it takes to at least begin the road to recovery. I've seen the difference those things can make, I've had my husband back for longer periods of time, but it's the time in between that is hell. The goal is stability, to have the down times few and far between. It's not easy.

Thanks, 4support,

I read your message and appreciate your comments and ideas. I want to ask if your husband admits he has a problem. How long has he been in treatment? Does he acknowledge that his behavior can be a problem or is "the" problem in your marriage? Do you have family support in all this? My husband has, on a few, rare ocaisions, alluded to recognizing that his behavior is out of control--with work issues, spending, drinking and smoking. That is probably a good sign. But, he has never acknowledged that his behavior to me is a problem. The closest he came was over the events that led us to finally start marriage counseling; he was yelling, viciously rude to me, slamming doors and verging on violence (I felt). He never actually apologized, but said something like he "knew it must have been really terrible" in a marriage session down the road from the events. I have always felt very uncomfortable with this. If we go to therapy and act like it's just a couple who needs to reconnect, tighten up the ol' communication routine, and spice things up, and we never say flat out--look at these things (the depression, the BP, the alcohol), these things are the problem, what good does it do? I guess I get that it is hard for him--humiliating, an ego blow, whatever, but what about his family? I am there with him. I don't belittle him or make fun of him; I am solid. Yet he accuses me of not supporting him; it should be enough that he is taking all this medicine--why won't I get off his back? (As if I'm even on his back! I don't bother him with anything unless it is dire.) I just can't stand the thought of another therapist, but I feel like we keep going around in circles. I want an intervention--someone to say "this is it--it's out of the bag--GET HELP!" Yet, in our joint sessions, I keep leaving feeling guilty! I don't know if my therapist is afraid of him, or finds him an intriguing challenge and is more worried about his not coming anymore than about getting help for our family. I feel like I am spending money for no real change. I cannot affect what happens with his therapist and his new psychiatrist; he has told me his therapist will not see the both of us (conflict of interest) and he has only seen his new psychiatrist once or twice and his goal was to get off the Depakote (it dulls the edges and he likes to be razor sharp). I just don't know if this is "the process" or if I do need to find a new therapist. To think that I've done this for 15 years without any help, I feel like I can't waste another minute!

Dear Ell, You said in one of your posts that if you divorce he'll have custody of the children. Why do you believe that? If you bring up his alcoholism, physically teasing the children with biting & extreme tickeling, taking medication while drinking, instability, etc. etc. to a

lawyer, maybe it would ease your mind about losing custody of the children.

Does he drive them anywhere after drinking daily? These are things any family court judge would need to hear and take into consideration.

Just wondering if you've checked it out.

I was in your same circumstance once, with my ex threatening to harrass me forever if I didn't let him have the kids. His 'girlfriend at THAT time' was his "soul mate" . My lawyer was like, "He's drinking, arrested for drugs, quit his job, domestic violence issues, and you are worried about him getting the kids, are you kidding?!!!" But when you are intimidated and emotionally abused for a long time it takes your confidence and in my case, some judgement capabilities away.

OK, I hope I can answer all of your questions...here goes - it has taken my husband 4 years to even accept (for the most part) that he truly suffers from Bipolar Disorder, despite counseling, meds that help, and general feedback from me at home, his therapist and his psychiatrists. Before, he thought this was a "made up condition". Initially, when I finally convinced him to go to counseling with me (things were very bad for almost a year), he agreed to go "to see what was wrong with me". He announced to the therapist and the psychiatrist that all the chaos in our home was somehow my fault, but could not explain what exactly I was doing to him. He really believed that he did not have any problem at that time, and this continued for a while. It was a very difficult time in our marriage, and I had a 2 year old and a new baby and was trying to hold it all together. My husband has been on medications for 4 years, he started on Lithium alone which only worked for a little while. Then we had a series of new doctors and new meds, none of which seemed to be the right combo until this year, when he began taking Lamictal and Adderall (for the ADHD), in addition to the Lithium. This seems to be a better combo, but honestly it's still not at the right dosages. The doc really does take baby steps with changing or increasing doses on any of my husband's medications. Now my husband has decided he is ready for a new doctor, so we are in transition again. I am thankful that at least he does go to the doctor, and he does see a therapist (although not often enough). No, I do not have family support, or any support really except for my therapist. This is because I have chosen not to share my husband's condition with anyone for several reasons. My MIL knows that my husband has BP, but she doesn't understand anything about the condition and doesn't want to talk about it or learn about it. It turns out that my FIL (RIP) more than likely had BP, and my BIL may too. There is also an Aunt with BP, and another Aunt with depression on my husband's side of the family. My MIL is also depressed. Currently, my husband will admit that "he is no angel at times", but he minimizes the affects of the BP on him, and the affects on the whole family. He thinks that ironically when his meds lapse, or when he hasn't slept for 2 months, that all of a sudden the conflict rising in the house "must be my fault". This says to me that he still does not recognize what's at the "core" of the conflict, which is his mood and behaviour changes. Everything is happy and peaceful when he is doing well. That, to me, is the devastating and emotional roller coaster about this illness. It comes out of the blue, when you are least expecting it, and leaves you shocked, literally. I have questioned so many things - what he believes and doesn't believe about me, our marriage, our love, himself, etc...when he's fine, he thinks I'm nuts to question any of it, but he doesn't seem to remember just how hurtful he is when he's not well. With him though, there are other personality issues going on. Apparently, his dad did not treat his mother that well at home, and some of this may seem normal to him, although I don't let him forget that it's not normal and not acceptable. So he has to work on all of that in therapy as well. I do not think even having an illness should be an excuse for verbally or emotionally abusing your spouse. I mean, how are you supposed to supporting him and loving him if he treats you this way whenever he pleases? I also never belittle my husband, but he twists things - for instance, if I ask him to please stop being so argumentative, he says I am "judging him, talking down to him". It's ridiculous. If ever BP or his dr appts or therapy is discussed, he gets defensive and says things like "well, now that you've HAD me diagnosed with BP, you can label me and you think you're a doctor". Keep in mind that we don't really talk about "BP", except if things aren't going well, and I am always cautious and respectful if I bring up anything with him. It doesnt' matter though, he will still lose it. How can seeing the same therapist be a "conflict of interest" if it is for marriage counseling, or for serious issues which are affecting the marriage? My husband and I see the same therapist, he is very good, but often my husband will say that "the therapist sides with me", even though he is totally professional and trying to help. Ell, I would get a new therapist and start looking for some progress. 6 months is a long time to waste if nothing different is happening, of course your husband has to do a lot of this work on his own. I feel for you, I know this is hard, and I know it rocks the boat at home. I try to focus on my children when my husband is not doing well.

Post edited by: 4support, at: 12/13/2007 19:23

I hope you do not mind - I love your post but I need to break it up to have my friend read it. (She has trouble followint things) Thanks. It is a GREAT post and I do not want her to miss anything. Thanks again, pls do not be offended but consider it a compliment - as it is an important post.

OK, I hope I can answer all of your questions...here goes - it has taken my husband 4 years to even accept (for the most part) that he truly suffers from Bipolar Disorder, despite counseling, meds that help, and general feedback from me at home, his therapist and his psychiatrists. Before, he thought this was a "made up condition".

Initially, when I finally convinced him to go to counseling with me (things were very bad for almost a year), he agreed to go "to see what was wrong with me". He announced to the therapist and the psychiatrist that all the chaos in our home was somehow my fault, but could not explain what exactly I was doing to him.

He really believed that he did not have any problem at that time, and this continued for a while. It was a very difficult time in our marriage, and I had a 2 year old and a new baby and was trying to hold it all together.

My husband has been on medications for 4 years, he started on Lithium alone which only worked for a little while. Then we had a series of new doctors and new meds, none of which seemed to be the right combo until this year, when he began taking Lamictal and Adderall (for the ADHD), in addition to the Lithium.

This seems to be a better combo, but honestly it's still not at the right dosages. The doc really does take baby steps with changing or increasing doses on any of my husband's medications. Now my husband has decided he is ready for a new doctor, so we are in transition again. I am thankful that at least he does go to the doctor, and he does see a therapist (although not often enough). No, I do not have family support, or any support really except for my therapist. This is because I have chosen not to share my husband's condition with anyone for several reasons.

My MIL knows that my husband has BP, but she doesn't understand anything about the condition and doesn't want to talk about it or learn about it. It turns out that my FIL (RIP) more than likely had BP, and my BIL may too. There is also an Aunt with BP, and another Aunt with depression on my husband's side of the family. My MIL is also depressed.

Currently, my husband will admit that "he is no angel at times", but he minimizes the affects of the BP on him, and the affects on the whole family. He thinks that ironically when his meds lapse, or when he hasn't slept for 2 months, that all of a sudden the conflict rising in the house "must be my fault". This says to me that he still does not recognize what's at the "core" of the conflict, which is his mood and behaviour changes. Everything is happy and peaceful when he is doing well.

That, to me, is the devastating and emotional roller coaster about this illness. It comes out of the blue, when you are least expecting it, and leaves you shocked, literally. I have questioned so many things - what he believes and doesn't believe about me, our marriage, our love, himself, etc...when he's fine, he thinks I'm nuts to question any of it, but he doesn't seem to remember just how hurtful he is when he's not well. With him though, there are other personality issues going on.

Apparently, his dad did not treat his mother that well at home, and some of this may seem normal to him, although I don't let him forget that it's not normal and not acceptable. So he has to work on all of that in therapy as well. I do not think even having an illness should be an excuse for verbally or emotionally abusing your spouse. I mean, how are you supposed to supporting him and loving him if he treats you this way whenever he pleases? I also never belittle my husband, but he twists things - for instance, if I ask him to please stop being so argumentative, he says I am "judging him, talking down to him".

It's ridiculous. If ever BP or his dr appts or therapy is discussed, he gets defensive and says things like "well, now that you've HAD me diagnosed with BP, you can label me and you think you're a doctor". Keep in mind that we don't really talk about "BP", except if things aren't going well, and I am always cautious and respectful if I bring up anything with him. It doesnt' matter though, he will still lose it. How can seeing the same therapist be a "conflict of interest" if it is for marriage counseling, or for serious issues which are affecting the marriage? My husband and I see the same therapist, he is very good, but often my husband will say that "the therapist sides with me", even though he is totally professional and trying to help. Ell, I would get a new therapist and start looking for some progress.

6 months is a long time to waste if nothing different is happening, of course your husband has to do a lot of this work on his own. I feel for you, I know this is hard, and I know it rocks the boat at home. I try to focus on my children when my husband is not doing well.

Post edited by: 4support, at: 12/13/2007 19:23