Please help me understand....

I feel so much empathy for your plight i.e. being in love with an Avoidant man. I too fell in love with a very lovely man just over a year ago and suffer many of the effects that you do. Fortunately he is away working for 6 weeks (we have been living together) and I cannot tell you what a relief it is to have time to focus on myself again without feeling so confused.

I haven't got too much time right now but will definitely check the site again later, perhaps we could try to help each other understand things. I am 43, perhaps a little older than you? I can only tell you that I am using this next six weeks to concentrate on getting myself fit and healthy mentally and physically and also to understand more about my own co-dependent tendencies, i.e. why do I always fall for emotionally unavailable men? It is my aim to get myself to a healthy space where I can be strong enough to let this relationship go.

I love my partner dearly and underneath his barriers he is a truly beautiful and wonderful person but from what I understand about AvPD it is very difficult to overcome. I do have needs, I need to feel loved and emotionally intimate with my partner, I need physical intimacy sometimes too - sadly I don't think he will ever be able to provide these things and so my choice is going to be to move on, life is too short. I know it is the right choice but it doesn't stop it breaking my heart.

If you google mental help net - you should find another useful AvPd site entitled 'Shame and Avoidant personality disorder'. There are some very helpful posts on there. A very helpful book I have read is 'Healing the Shame that Binds you'. It seems AvPd is closely linked to shame, it certainly is in my parnter's case.

Anyway Baysunriz I wish you every success in your own journey towards a healthy and happy relationship with yourself and a loving partner, that is what we all deserve.

Regards

Nelly

I agree that shame must be a large component of this personality disorder. Though I dont know specifically, my bf was part of a family whose eldest brother was in jail and has been estranged from his own childen, his bio family which includes his brother (my ex bf) and his own mom and dad--for over a decade. I believe my ex was in some way abused by this brother and felt neglected (perhaps because of the abuse an no one doing anything about it). With it obviously came shame. And his current behavior has two sides----one that wants to be seen as a "hero" and the other that is very dark, addicted to porn in various forms and a hidden life. Rigid thinking and behavior. You can "feel" him fighting himself palpably. But, when I saw too much of his dark side, he pushed me away because he didnt want to feel shame I guess. SO, yes, I agree that shame is a large part of it. I too think I made him feel more shame in retrospect for saying that he would do something, but when it came right down to it, he would find an excuse to not follow through. And when I called him on that behavior, he further distanced himself from me (it was before I understood avoidant personality). I would handle it differently perhaps, but the way I would handle it is by being a friend NOT an intimate partner. There is way too much to overcome there to have a happy healthy relationship if you are an extrovert who expects (and at some level demands) a healthy relationship. I am still healing. I think of him every day. I still love the loving part of him. But, I am healthier and happier without him to be bluntly honest.

I applaud you for knowing what to do..I did too, but it took 9 months to come to the point of making it happen. To get out. It was He who ended things--but pretty much because of me holding him accountable for things he promised and didnt (couldnt) deliver on). It was easier to push me away than to deal with the more difficult issues of facing his own fears (and shame).

He said his two worst vices were inability to forgive and pride. A deadly combination. And I think false pride at that.

Anyway, I would really like to talk to you outside of this open forum, but not sure how to do that? I wish you well in your journey as well....is your BF aware of his DX? Mine wasnt. It was my therapist who gave me the probable DX. It was a real eye opener....as I am pretty much the opposite of it from a personality perspective--

Thanks Nelly again for the post. It makes me feel like someone else out there understands.....and is on the same wavelength.

Dawn

Thanks for your response to my email. Sorry for late reply but lucky me I have just been on two back to back holidays over the last month with only a few days in between them. Just got back last night so it will take me a few days to catch up on myself and then I would love to correspond with you regarding relationships with AvPd issues.

Kindest regards

Lyn (Nelly)

I'm glad to hear you are doing all you can to build your own inner happiness now that your relationship is over. I sympathise with all you have been (are still) going through.

My partner was away for six weeks working and during that time I did manage to pick myself up - almost back to my usual chirpy self in fact though I did miss him and stupidly fantasized about how the relationship would be different after the break. After that, we had 2 weeks holiday which was a mix of good and bad then I was away on a hen trip until early this week.

I was so looking forward to getting back into 'normal' life and was so excited to be home. Shortlived happiness! Did you ever feel like you were just one hand clapping? That you were the only one interested in investing anything emotional into your relationship? I feel just like that, I am so very tired of the contstant emotional/physical rejection, I just end up feeling worthless.

Its a desperate situation loving someone so much yet knowing that I have to end the relationship for my own sanity. My only other hope is that he might agree to go to couples therapy with me, though for an AvPd'er (undiagnosed) I guess that is pretty difficult to do.

I'm in that horrible space right now, hes been in bed all day (4.40pm) avoiding me and I have been too depressed to leave the house and face the world. What a miserable existence. How do I get the courage to end it? I'm such an optimist at heart I always look for that one hope to hang onto, keep seeing the lovely man I know he is inside and hoping he will come out of his kryptonite shell.

Do you have any sensible advice for me? you are in a much more stable emotional position right now.

I hope you are doing ok with your recovery? I guess it takes a while?

Speak soon

Lyn

My advice to you Lyn, as I have recently discovered my AvPD, is to either get him into therapy, or you get out. Dawn has a point, there is so much to overcome that it is extremely difficult. From some piece of your soul, that is still yours and aching to break free and be happy again, I say act for yourself! It will feel selfish and hurt--but as they say--the life you save may be your own.

Shame and depression are big parts of AvPD. Everyday I wake up and think "why?" I get up thinking how useless and incapable I am before my feet hit the ground. Something you might want to accomplish and get done early snowballs quite quickly into a chore for me.

Dawn, you've said that he seemed, essentially, two-faced. This is very true. For me interacting at work is much easier for me then any other task. I can put on my professional hat and play the game. I can get my files worked on (I am a loan processor at a mortgage broker), stay on the phone all day and email like a fiend and no one is the wiser. Separating personal and professional comes quite easily. If only because professional behavior is a standard. Please and thank you, deadlines and "files on fire" are understandable. I only have to call someone, get what I need and get that loan processed. Relationships, friends-family-intimate, are different. There is no training in school.

Either I am at work, or closed off. My interactions, outside of work, are very much one on one. I have not been to any clubs, only a handful of parties and I always made sure there was plenty of booze there. I walk in the door and start drinking, and don't say another word after "hello" until I am good and lit. I do however hold my tongue more then anyone there. Being sloshed brings me to a comfortable point where I don't panic over every word I say. Others at the party will be making out with everyone else, and it is at that point I can talk to someone.

Interacting with my boyfriend was painful. Planning what WE wanted was mostly too much to bare. I've been called a chameleon as I never have ideas of my own, and can never choose what to do. I don't remember ever saying what restaurant I wanted to go to, sticking to my guns and actually going there. Being emotionally intimate was literally tiring. Sorting out the different feelings of "love" was fruitless. I could love the color yellow as much as I did my car the same way I loved him--the lines are blurry and keep changing.

For me, that deep shame surfaced more during sex. I was never good enough. I was too inexperienced, too fat, too embarrassed to leave the lights on. Some random sexual faux pas that you might laugh at and move on is crushing. He, or I, might be in the heat of the moment and he'd slip out and it was mortifying. This did happen to me and I got up and spent the better part of the night silently crying in the bathroom. I don't know if it is usual for someone with AvPD, but I have yet to connect "I love you" with the act of sex. Love is some fluffy Valentine's Day card; sex is a hardcore porn that is dirty and poorly lit. Connecting the two in a manner that bridges that divide and benefits both those ideas (in a positive way) is something I struggle with everyday. I see a couple hold hands, and want to be one of them--having someone to curl up with and kiss. But seeing a half naked model (billboard ad, TV show, etc) and the idea of sex takes over. Gone is the idea of softly petting your loved one, and instead comes the hard and fast line of that dark monster in your brain being released.

I know I have gone on and on. I hope someone got at least one nugget of knowledge out of this--I feel I need to say what I feel somewhere, to someone. Thank you and again, I am sorry that both of you have been hurt in the ways you have.

Post edited by: Drasross, at: 05/06/2008 05:28

How did you get diagnosed? He never has--but his social avoidance and DSM criteria for this disorder is more than obvious. He also has anxiety and OCD (also undiagnosed as far as I know though his doc has him on anti anxiety meds for "sleep").

Question--does the shame have some basis in reality? Did something hhappen to you that shouldnt be your shame to carry but you do anyway? I wonder if he was abused by an older brother--or sexually abused as he is hypersexual and sometimes I wonder if he is bisexual but doesnt want to admit it. I found a stash of pregnant and anal and barely legal porn that he had--all very degrading to women. It made me sick and I am not a prude. He tried --unsuccessfully -- to groom me for some things that were outside of my boundaries sexually (multiple partners, willing to do anything "for me" and a fixation on anal sex). It was so different from the beginning of our sex life in which he was extremely careful, sensitive, caring, worried about hurting me--to a place where he would say nasty things and pull my hair and do things I found degrading in the end. It was like being with two different people....

There was one time early on that we did I think connect the sex-love thing and it was powerful...at least with me...I used to have problems connecting the two as well....but I did with him for only the second time in my life....but that soon diminished the more in love I fell with him. IN a way, he acted like he didnt deserve my love that he fought so hard to get....

as you can tell from the length of this email, that I still have so many questions and have a great need for closure. I thank you soooo much in hel;ping me find a little bit through you. That is a true blessing.

Thank you so very much, and allow sunlight into your life, we all have worth value and the blessing of being loved....

I hope you find the strength to love yourself enough to allow yourself to be fully loved by someone whole enough-even it that is simply yourself. I am learning.

Take care of yourself first....like they tell you on a plane--put the oxygen mask on yourself BEFORE you put it on your child---or you will both be potentially lost. hmmmm......

It's too bad that you have been treated and feel so badly--and on TWO birthdays! Longing is something I too am still trying to get over. I know how I act and relate to people but from what I've read, I just can't abide his behavior. I too dislike holidays, and *especially* my own birthday. That still doesn't dismiss being shat all over. I am on or off, but rarely a mean bastard.

I was never formally diagnosed with AvPD but it was brought up again and again several years ago when I was in therapy. I had to cut my visits off as my mom wasn't able to continue my sessions. Turns out therapy isn't cheap. I have done much reading in the last few months and found AvPD. I've read symptoms lists of other disorders and find there are a few things that match and some that don't. Manic depressive (bipolar) is such an example for me. So close but not quite. Along with a few others. But with AvPD I found that the symptom list wasn't sort of right--it was dead on in every way. It was akin to realizing that my glasses had been on my face the whole time I was looking for them; a light bulb went off.

When I was younger I had, what I now know is, OCPD. Here is a link for reference: http://www.swedish.org/16935.cfm Everything had to be in it's place, everything in the kitchen was arranged by size from largest to smallest starting from the back right corner leading forward and to the left--older was behind newer. Doing laundry was quite a chore. Sorted and washing by color (of course) then type of garment then by its purpose (school, after-school, going out, throw away/chore clothes then sleepwear). My closet was perfectly organized from left to right by type: short sleeve, half sleeve, full sleeve; shorts, jeans; then all that by color, lightest to darkest. School notes would be rewritten for hours after school. I remember when it dawned on me to more quickly write lesson notes on loose sheets of paper so I wouldn't miss anything, then come home and labor over them again copying them to a spiral bound notebook. Eating was fun. Always from the least amount of food first. I figured that since I had more of one item it would linger more on my pallet and therefore only reasonable to eat it last as the smaller quantities wouldn't be able to "overpower" those of greater quantity.

This is only the tip of what used to be, to me, a perfectly normal ice burg. These OCPD thoughts have subsided greatly over the years and I am only left with a few holdovers, like when I eat. Skittles are my favor candy and I find that they too get sorted and eaten from least to greatest. The real problem is when I have an equal number of two (or more) colors. I usually only eat them when I am around someone else, so I can ask, "green or orange? Green or orange?! JUST PICK A COLOR FOR ME!"

As for the shame question, to me at least, it is generally based in reality, but it seldom stays there. For me, someone will make a snide comment and that comment stays with me and boils over into a less grounded fact or feeling. A basic example, "that shirt you're wearing today looks good on you" not only makes me think that all my other shirts don't, but that the complimented shirt will never look good on me ever again. I find I have to let go, or ignore, a lot of what people say to me or it will fester and bother me, especially if it is a compliment. I do feel that my body image isn't based in reality. My first "romance" was over the phone with someone from a different high school but once he saw my picture he flat out told me that I needed to loose weight and suggested that I try the binge and purge method. My perception of my shame was real, but the reality of my shame wasn't. He was a mean bastard, and I so desperately wanted to fit in that it became reality for months. It was liberating at first, eat what you want and know that it won't matter! Imagine that. Five slices of pizza, go ahead! The family will think that you exercise or have a fast metabolism. I loved to eat and eat I did. But at the same time the end of a toothbrush became a fast friend--more so then the "ex-boyfriend" was and by this point he had left my mind entirely.

Once I started high school I knew that I was a small fish in a big pond and things only got worse. I was not able to adjust the way many others did and I began to turn inward. My high school was massively overcrowded--nearly 3400 kids in a school designed for 2700. People were everywhere and it was oppressive in a way that I have yet to experience since. It never occurred to me to say hi, can I sit with you? This was a horrid cycle that is still continuing today.

With other issues though, I do feel shamed for other people and carry that too, whether it relates to me or not. When my mom got pregnant with me, I was the reason she and my dad married. He was, and still is, a miserable bastard but I feel that I was the reason they got divorced a year later. It might not have been my fault for the divorce, but I was the reason for the marriage, and therefore the divorce regardless of his flaws. I don't want to put pressure on you for asking questions, but I feel like you got a raw deal from your ex and feel compelled to answer any question you may have and (anonymously) tell my story in the process. I want to make it clear that he has an issue (or a half dozen) and your guilty of only wanting to be a part of his life and build something together--red flags or not.

It's getting late and I think this is more then you wanted to know, or is very off topic... Take care till next time.

Post edited by: Drasross, at: 05/07/2008 05:29

You are right about the compliments.....he was TERRIBLE at taking them. It was almost as if he felt like he didnt deserve them. He had a FANTASTIC body that he worked on obsessively every day --and when he was on the prowl, he tanned too--it was like he was vain but FELT like he had to do the best he could with inferior merchandise. He was also almost white haired at age 38 and it was getting thin..he was very self conscious of this, despite his movie star good looks--his face was near perfection to me--beautiful blue eyes that could be a warm--or as COLD and piercing as he meant them to be. He manipulated me quite a bit--I was aware of it, but to me, his happiness had, for awhile become more important than my own--I loved him that much. I never became that selfless for anyone in my life--I am otherwise very independent and intelligent...but his initial words and behavior and his looks had me under deep spell. I really thought if he understood I wouldnt leave him despite his issues, that my love would eventually be enough for him to feel safe to deal with his issues and become the person I THOUGHT he wanted to be (the one I met in the beginning--which was awesome).

I still think of him daily, despite dating again. I find myself thinking of him far too often. I have tried email contact just to see if he is doing ok, and the last one I got was "I guess you are happy to know I am miserable" and that no good (for him I guess) could come from further communication between us. I replied I could never be happy about someone I love being miserable. ANd that I thought beyond our romance, we had a strong friendship, and that still remained--at least on my end. But apparently, he either cant deal with us remaining friends, or simply doesnt want to--or we were never friends to begin with and I was just a sexual conquest to him ultimately and that he doesnt really know what real love is--only infatuation. I dont know, probably never will. He refused to meet any of my friends or introduce me to his (one) friend. His one friend, he saw twice in a years time and that friend is married and his wife expecting a baby. He was mad about them expecting I think, as he saw it as a betrayal of sorts, and that he would lose the one friend he had as they were moving on in life. And yes, there are many things he does that are very OCD....irons the same time each week, everything he owns (which is VERY limited, not due to income really either but by choice) is obsessively organized. He gets rid of anything he doesnt use at least weekly. His clothing is limited to about 4 dress shirts, enough clothing for a week at work MAYBE, two belts, 4 pair of shoes including sneakers. He lived for watching certain TV shows--including coming home early from the one vacation we had together (to meet his family after he asked to marry me) to watch the final episode of the sopranos--because he didnt want to watch it with anyone else around....he lives for the show HOUSE and a few others.

When I think of things rationally, he did me a huge favor of suddenly ending things the night before I was supposed to stay at his home as I was attending a conference nearby. We had those plans in place a month in advance. I was very hurt that he would cancel at the last minute, forcing me to drive 1 1/2 hours very early in the morning to get to my conference on time. It was his final mean act--and it was done with no apologies or explanations. I have since found out that he was grooming more women for his use apparently (two days later he slipped and told me that 3 girls were knocking down his doors to date him). He said it with delight that made me nauseous...he meant to hurt me and he was successful. How a person can go from being very (overly?) concerned for anothers feelings to being that hurtful I will never understand. Its like dealing with two different people.

I said it before, but I will say it again, the book "distancing" is amazing and can be bought through any bookstore or online such as amazon. It is in depth and offers not only a full description of AvPD, but offers potential treatments that are successful for some at least. (a good cognitive behavioral therapist and medication seemed to be the combination most effective from what I read)--but a person has to WANT to find happiness and a better way of living.....he felt "safe" as is, and I dont think wants to face his demons.....he only has surface awareness of his issues I think...

He wants to be seen as this great guy--but from a distance.....and he wants to hide the darker side of himself--like obsessions with strippers, naked pics of women (often pics of just a body no head (cut off from pic)... he used to get very excited when I sent him a naked or near naked pic of myself--more so than me actually being with him. It began to creep me out after awhile...and I realized that the more I sent to him, the less I saw of him.......he told me his favorite hobby was masturbation.

He also had a lot of difficult sleeping well.....he would fall asleep most of the time, but wouldnt stay asleep for more than a few hours...I found out that he took antianxiety meds to "sleep" while we were on vacation--he had never mentioned nor left his RX bottles out before then (and I saw them in his suitcase, he didnt intend for me to see them).

The only time he went to see a therapist was after his wife had an affair (probably because being with him is a lonely venture most of the time) and he was drinking in serious excess. He credits the therapist for a tough love approach that resulted in him stopping the drinking, but he quit going after only several sessions.

He also said while we were on vacation--tohis pet sitter and only friend on the phone---that he would come back if the dog wasnt adjusting as "she was all he had in his life"---and this was with ME in the room.....when I told him that what he said was hurtful to me, he said I was being melodramatic and overly sensitive---and he didnt mean it that way--now I realize he DID mean it that way--he loves that DOG like he cannot love a human. I suppose that is because the dog can love him without either complimenting him OR giving constructive criticism.....no human is capable of the kind of unconditinoal love a dog can provide in his mind....and perhaps while some of that is true, you also cannot get the emotional intimacy from a dog that you can from a human....and the dog would soon leave too if you stopped feeding it....(just like a human will when you stop feeding it (emotionally)....

anyway, this forum really helps me lick my wounds....I am still trying hard to even WANT a close relationship with a man at this point. I know I am very capable of a loving relationship, but I wonder my ability to choose a healhty one....So, for now, I date casually--until My heart heals. Ironically, I am finding out that the truth about (most) men----the more casual you are, the more interested they are.... and that makes me feel like it is all about the chase--and that IF we dare to be authenticwith our feelings, we risk losing the persons interes--just like I did with "R" but perhaps it was just less subtle with him? I waited until I was in love with him (after he told me he loved me) before we made love, and before I acted in a loving way toward him--but once I did fall and really was loving, he started to run. It broke my heart and still aches to this day--even though I realize I am less stressed, less beaten down and more alive without him. And yes, I have been going to therapy to deal with WHY I stayed in what had become an emotionally abusive relationship for far longer (9 months) than I should have.....becuase in reality I kept waiting for the person I fell in love with to "return" and that was nothing but a fantasy continually disproven by his behavior. I suppose I am either the ultimate optimist and believer in the good in people, OR, a woman who is driven herself by the need to help "fix" someone (read co dependent) and issues of her own that arent yet addressed....perhaps the answer is somewhere in between...

THanks for listening and helping me to understand him, myself and the relationship just a little more....every day I feel I get closer to letting my walls down just a little more....

D