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03/16/2010 12:52 AM

Ever tried meditation?(page 3)

markm
markmPosts: 722
Senior Member

I guess politics is the bonkers, favorite subject!Im smarter than I look though Sharon, i can debate fairly well. Smile
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03/16/2010 03:48 AM
sharone
sharone  
Posts: 3449
Group Leader
I'm an Advocate

But, I've never seen you! I'm not asking for debate. I'm just curious to know what it is about Ronald Reagan that appeals to an independent voter like you. He wasn't an independent thinker, markm. Actually, he wasn't a thinker at all, certainly not a creative thinker. He worked from a very genuine, deep seated core set of traditional values. He appears to have been honest (at least as honest as fame allows) and sincere and intelligent enough to work within the political structure that was in existence when he took office. Talk about samo samo. So, yeah, I'm still curious as to what it is about Reagan that you so much admire.

I was just reading an article about Obama and transparency in his governmental decisions. The article says that he came into office with the promise that he would be more transparent with his decisions. What it says is that he tries but that the leadership in departments functions independently of him and they resist this demand for change. We finally have a president who is intelligent enough and creative enough to make real changes but he is thwarted at every move. It's pathetic.

I would really hope that voters who want to accuse Obama of being the same as every one else genuinely examine what's happening out there before they slam him. We've all been handed a golden opportunity here w/his presidency and we're wasting it. I'm not a democrat. A lot of those people make me sick. But, when I see someone who surrounds himself with intelligence not just in his partner but in the people around him that he trusts, AND he works endlessly around the clock keeping in mind health care and the environment, the budget, the jobs crisis, the failure of the banking system, education and foreign affairs, I just have to say how much I appreciate that we have someone like that leading our country and I'd defend him, as an individual, to anyone. He's definitely not samo samo.

So, we can drop this if you want to because I've said my peace for now. But I really would like to hear your defense of Ronald Reagan. Smile

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03/16/2010 04:04 AM
vickiem1124
vickiem1124  
Posts: 1948
VIP Member

she tried markm but couldn't help herself
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03/16/2010 11:39 AM
carollives
carollives  
Posts: 70
Member

Politics... should I chime in, or not... Wink

I'm EXTREMELY unimpressed with the 2 major political parties. There is so much obvious corruption ingrained into each that it's not funny. That said, I don't trust Obama. I like him as a person, he seems very intelligent, with great charm, and a fantasitic wife. IT's just that he is a liberal Democrat and there are many very basic differences between my values as a somewhat conservative american, and the changes he believes that America needs.

I was a little kid when he was around, but I love Ronald Reagan because he stood for the things that I value, Freedom and the Constitution. I like the principles that this country was founded on.

I also LOVE the idea of universal healthcare, if Obama could pull it off without bankrupting the country, i'd be all for it. Major change is needed, no doubt! I'm just not willing to allow the government to collapse because of our current debt added to the amazing debt UH will generate. There has to be a better way.

Post edited by: carollives, at: 03/16/2010 11:43 AM

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03/16/2010 03:32 PM
sharone
sharone  
Posts: 3449
Group Leader
I'm an Advocate

I agree that the way the health bill stands now, with the individual state earmarks, it shouldn't fly. BUT, w/o the earmarks, it is the bill we all need. W/O UH (and they are really NOT calling it UH...that is socialism according to many) we will be bankrupt...have you seen the stats for Medicare and SS? I think what I read that paying out for one of these programs alone will consume the total budget in the next 30 years or so...I'm just general quoting but do you get my drift? We can't NOT act if we're talking finances alone. If we look at it in human terms, we can't not act either.

I can imagine that if you are conservative you love RR. And, honestly, as a person, didn't he give the impression he'd make a great neighbor, kind uncle or grandfather? But, honestly, this thing about believing in the constitution and freedom, they all do, Caroline, whichever side of the aisle they're on. That's just part of being American. It's kind of one of the con jobs of current politics that folks want you to think that one side or the other cares more about our freedom. I studied history in school and I'll tell you honestly, not many people understand the constitution and not many people understand the bill of rights, our personal freedoms. They are misconstrued all the time, to benefit one person or another's agenda.

I am actually left of liberal but only because I believe that there should be a cap on earnings. What I mean is earn whatever you want or can but at some cap, your earnings should be reconstituted into a public fund, into public programs. There are people who are limited in the type of work they can do, generally lower pay who have children to raise. They shouldn't be disregarded. The needs of older people who just didn't earn enough to last through old age that seems to go on for a lot more years that expected, should be cared for at least in some subsistence way. We assume that the needy just don't work and that is wrong.

I guess I'm all about utopian. Our environment should be cared for just because it's our environment not because it may or may not be threatened. And WHO should care for it? Everyone. We should be educating our kids to care for their environment and their neighbors and the kids and old folks they come into contact with as if we are one big tribe.

I think many of us agree that there is something wrong with the political system we have now. I'm unimpressed w/the 2 major political parties too. But, Obama is the one and only one I do trust. And, I trust him fully. When he presented the health bill this time around he specifically asked the democrats to remove the earmarks. I think they have refused. That's why I hedge on supporting this bill as it stands. But, it's not because of Obama. Him I trust implicitly. He's been through a lot personally, him and those around him. I think he gets it. Oh, and maybe that's because he's liberal? I don't know. I also liked Kusinich who was independent.

So, don't buy into the touting of freedom or constitution. I have as much respect for the flag and know probably more of the history of our founding fathers than many. I've great respect for the document that we live under and feel very fortunate to be a woman living in the US today. I'm just not conservative fiscally or socially.

So, what are the principles that this country was founded on exactly? I guess I'm just not clear what those are? Do you mean the bill of rights?

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03/17/2010 09:35 AM
carollives
carollives  
Posts: 70
Member

I need meditation after that....

Yeah, I'm really good at responding to something like that. I believe what I believe. This is what I got out of that post, I don't know my history, I don't know anything about the bill of rights or the constitution, I "buy into the touting of freedom...etc. " I haven't bought into anything it's something that I believe and deeply understand. How insulting to suggest that I've been sold anything... Sad to say, the typical response from my leftist friends. I don't feel like I have to defend anything.

What to talk about Obama? Ok, what to know why I don't trust him? It's simple things, like why can't he produce a birth certificate? I don't believe that he WAS born in the states, that procludes him from even being president. Why Obfuscate the truth? What does he have to hide?

Your utopian society is impossibe, you can't please everone all the time. Someone will be left out, usually the ones among us who have the most trouble speaking up for themselves. Like me.

Saddest part is that I actually agree with most of what you talked about, except for when you said that it's not called unversal healthcare... semantics, isn't healthcare for everyone the same as healthcare universally for everyone? Call it what you what, it's socialism. It has been done in other countries, Canada, the UK, so many more, and the end result is long wait times and poorer care for everyone. Show me one example where this isn't the case. I think that it's a wonderful thing to do in a perfect world, but this isn't a perfect world. The only thing it will do is bankrupt the country, SS and Medicaid are already in enough trouble, like you so wonderfully pointed out.

What happened to personal resposibility? Thats what I believe in, the government should only give assistance to me when I actually can do nothing for myself to help myself. It's a last ditch resourse that only should be available during times of extreme need, not for everthing I think the government should pay for.

Post edited by: carollives, at: 03/17/2010 09:42 AM

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03/17/2010 12:16 PM
sharone
sharone  
Posts: 3449
Group Leader
I'm an Advocate

No, caroline, what I said was that it IS UH, but that if you call it that, the folks who are against this will call you a socialist. I was being sarcastic.

Everywhere that they have UH in this world the end result is ABSOLUTELY NOT long wait times and poorer care. The end result is that everyone buys into it on some level so the cost is shared by all AND we no longer have these cadillac plans...people can't overdo on exams the way we do in this country...docs send you for exams ad inifinitim and no one really knows which exams are necessary or which are fleecing the patient's pockets. THAT is how UH works in other countries. It's efficient, it is less costly, it's available to everyone equally, regardless of wealth. And that is true across the boards. I'd questions your sources. You can certainly research this directly through the internet.

And, yeah, this could be the turning point for our country where we stop thinking of #1 and start thinking of one another...tribal thinking. That doesn't relinquish personal responsibility in any way. How does it?

And, honestly, I still don't understand what you mean by Ronald Reagan and freedom and the constitution. I asked you what the values of this country are and you still didn't answer that question. I think that freedom and the constitution when used in the context that you use them in are kind of vague terms. But, the constitution in reality is a legal, binding document. It has perimeters. It makes clear our personal rights and freedoms. Every president is sworn to uphold the constitution. I think one can safely assume that every president of the united states to date has thoroughly believed that he was ruling by the constitution throughout his presidency, even Dick Cheney when he expanded the rights of the VP...oh under W of course.

I'm not even going to dignify your statement about Obama's legitimacy to his position with a response. Meaningless accusations indicate the lack of any real arguments.

You believe what you believe but you don't know why and you can't back it up. You just do. And, yeah, that is okay because that is the meaning of freedom in this country. There are a lot of people who just believe things. They don't know why they believe what they do, they just do. That amounts to a lot of opinions with no real understanding.

obfuscate? That term must have been lifted off of some anti-Obama site, cause it's certainly not a word any human has ever used before.

To clear up some misunderstanding, the government/taxpayers is already paying the bills for those w/no or inadequate insurance. You don't understand that. People with no insurance or inadequate insurance end up with health bills that can't pay or they wait to get care until they are totally ill and then become medicare eligible or stiff the health insurers/docs etc out of payment so that their bills go up for YOU the consumer. What don't you understand about that? One way or another, medicare and that is the taxpayers ARE already paying for this! If we acknowledge that and pay for it up front, before people get so sick that the bills are huge, then we are being proactive and paying much less. There's a real lack of understanding in this country on what is at stake here. YOU ARE ALREADY FOOTING THE BILL. All of us who work are already footing the bill. PLUS we are footing the bill again by paying soaring premiums that have no cap at all and won't until we get legislation in place to cap it. If you want to make it smaller then you will help folks get health insurance so you aren't paying for their emergencies. Is it any clearer now?

it's okay to have opinions but it's really much better to have understanding. And, I don't mean that condescendingly. I think these are really complex issues and there are a lot of people slanting information and misinforming the public.

Post edited by: sharone, at: 03/17/2010 12:29 PM

Post edited by: sharone, at: 03/17/2010 12:34 PM

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03/17/2010 01:41 PM
markm
markmPosts: 722
Senior Member

Alright this topic is out of hand .Its my fault. if you want to debate politics, lets start a new topic ok? Smile, I think meditation is REally a good idea, ive done it before, and it is relaxing Carol. Smile
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